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Simple cellaring to get started

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SouthBound

Curmudgeon At-Large
Member
#43
My simple point...
Maybe this will help. Next time you open a sealed package of tobacco and distribute it to jars (assume sterilized), why not take a small vacuumed can of (oh let's say) fruit cocktail, place it in the same sort of container (as you did with the tobacco) and put those two jars (tobacco and cocktail) in you cellar. Give both about a year and let me know about the changes.
Now, purchase a 2 oz or 4 oz sealed tin of tobacco and a sealed tin of fruit cocktail and place them in the cellar as well. Give them the same year. I think you will be much more pleased with the results of the second group.
ps, I have to wonder about the cost of tobacco sold in mason jars.
Interesting topic yall. I cellar and enjoy lots of tins of tobacco in their original containers. ;)
I understand your argument, but it's the "apples and oranges" comparison, again. Some organic substances benefit from exposure to microbes; some don't. Of course, I wouldn't eat twenty year old recanned fruit cocktail, but I'll cheerfully accept all of the twenty something recanned tobacco you'd like to round up and mail to me.
 

#44
Recant: the sides aren't cardboard, but usually aluminum - they can be all-aluminum tins, like soda or been can technology. I'm not sure about the GLP tins, either aluminum or coated plastic.
 

Jwb

Member
Member
#45
I understand your argument, but it's the "apples and oranges" comparison, again. Some organic substances benefit from exposure to microbes; some don't. Of course, I wouldn't eat twenty year old recanned fruit cocktail, but I'll cheerfully accept all of the twenty something recanned tobacco you'd like to round up and mail to me.
Lots of truth here. Wine gets better with age in the bottle. Whiskey doesn't. What you have on day one in the bottle is pretty much what you have on year 10 in the bottle. I think tobacco ages differently than wine, whiskey....or fruit cocktail! :)
 

#46
I understand your argument, but it's the "apples and oranges" comparison, again. Some organic substances benefit from exposure to microbes; some don't. Of course, I wouldn't eat twenty year old recanned fruit cocktail, but I'll cheerfully accept all of the twenty something recanned tobacco you'd like to round up and mail to me.
I am talking about sugar. And this is NOT an argument. Simply a discussion.
 

#48
Lots of truth here. Wine gets better with age in the bottle. Whiskey doesn't. What you have on day one in the bottle is pretty much what you have on year 10 in the bottle. I think tobacco ages differently than wine, whiskey....or fruit cocktail! :)
I'm not talking about "aging"... I'm talking about bacteria and mold and improper storage of cooked/prepared vegetable matter (or fruit for that matter). Sure hope someone jumps in with some reason. (that would include all of the above). Mankind has spent several thousand years perfecting preservation. Often the results yield a product that is superior. I am questioning the "superiority" of a product (for consumption, whether smoked, drunken, or eaten) that doesn't adhere to time tested and proven preservation and fermentation. That's all.
 

jwh891

Member
Member
#51
My simple point...
Maybe this will help. Next time you open a sealed package of tobacco and distribute it to jars (assume sterilized), why not take a small vacuumed can of (oh let's say) fruit cocktail, place it in the same sort of container (as you did with the tobacco) and put those two jars (tobacco and cocktail) in you cellar. Give both about a year and let me know about the changes.
Now, purchase a 2 oz or 4 oz sealed tin of tobacco and a sealed tin of fruit cocktail and place them in the cellar as well. Give them the same year. I think you will be much more pleased with the results of the second group.
ps, I have to wonder about the cost of tobacco sold in mason jars.
Interesting topic yall. I cellar and enjoy lots of tins of tobacco in their original containers. ;)
I would think beef jerky would be a better analogy than fruit cocktail or wine. Tobacco is a dried product. While there is some moisture content, it is not on the same level as say a fruit cocktail. Therefore the aging process is going to be immensely different than it would with moving dried tobacco leaves from a tin to a jar.

Mind you, if the tobacco comes in a tin, I leave it until I'm ready to smoke it but bulk tobacco goes straight to a jar.
 

sillyoldbear

Active Member
Member
#52
Lots of truth here. Wine gets better with age in the bottle. Whiskey doesn't. What you have on day one in the bottle is pretty much what you have on year 10 in the bottle. I think tobacco ages differently than wine, whiskey....or fruit cocktail! :)
Hey if you want to can up that wine, whiskey and fruit cocktail and age that for 5 years I'd totally consume it ;)
 

SouthBound

Curmudgeon At-Large
Member
#53
I am talking about sugar. And this is NOT an argument. Simply a discussion.
I used "argument" in the sense of a statement that supports a position, as in a point in a debate. I was making a counterpoint to your point, a civil discussion with opposing points of view. In a strange coincidence, sugar also factored into my thinking, as did moisture content.
 

Jwb

Member
Member
#54
I am sorry. I cellar to age. The only thing I don't like is mold and dry tobacco. Keeping it in its unopened tin achieves that goal. Opening it and putting it in a jar does it too but a bit differently.
 

#55
I actually did some research on this.

1. Vacuum bagging is completely inappropriate for long-term storage of tobacco. Vacuum bagging is for long term storage (non-frozen) of very dry things, only a few % free water. The USDA and many prepper-type sites have info on this - lists of specific things that can be vacuum-bagged and kept at room temp, and those which cannot.

2. Tobacco blends have 10%-20% water by weight. I'm not sure how much is "free" water. "Free" is important because anaerobic bacteria, such as clostidium, require no oxygen and a moist environment to grow. Clostridium botulinum causes botulism. Botulism poisoning is often fatal. Grandmother was always careful with her canning. Boiling at atmospheric pressure will not kill the spores. Strong chlorine bleach can be effective against the clostridium bacteria; there are a couple other disinfectants that work, too. If you have a load of botulinum in your tobacco, I don't know if smoking it will kill you, but I don't want to find out. The pH of the environment also makes a difference.

3. Spores are everywhere, on surfaces, in the air, everywhere. Any time you open a container, you expose it to spores. Even clostridium difficile, a relative to c. botulinum, which used to be confined to hospitals, now turns up in the community. I know because my wife contracted it. C-diff eats your intestinal lining and you bleed out your rectum. There are only two antibiotics effective against it, and one often doesn't work. The other costs $700 a dose, and it takes a week or more of treatment. Without effective treatment, C-diff is fatal, unless they surgically cut out enough of your GI tract to simply remove the infected area, and you wear a bag.

If people use canning jars for long-term storage of tobacco, they should be as scrupulous about sterilization and cleanliness as if they were storing food.

The tobacco I buy in traditional lined round steel tins, I will store in those tins. I have to store at room temp, so I think 3-4 years is a reasonable limit to put on my expectations. At 50 degress, I would extend that a couple years. Many canned goods have been found to be perfectly fine for decades, although those are not the "easy open" tins we get, and are completely encased in steel (you need a can opener); so I might hope for 10-20 years, but I would not expect it, from either tins or jars.

Rectangular tins I have less confidence in.

Opening any tin or jar after long storage is the time to use your nose and eyes to see if you can detect anything amiss. You can't see or smell everything that can go wrong, but some things you can.

I don't know if the the life expectancy of the round aluminum "tins" some brands use have better or worse unopened life expectancy. McClellan uses them, and GL Pease. Maybe Mr. Pease might be able to contribute on this particular container type.

I think rotation of containers out of your cellar after a few years is a good precaution.

Lee
 

jhelms

Active Member
Member
#56
I am just a little bit curious...at what point does cellaring turn into hoarding? I see nothing wrong with either, I just want to know at what point I cross the line.:msty:
 

#57
I am just a little bit curious...at what point does cellaring turn into hoarding? I see nothing wrong with either, I just want to know at what point I cross the line.:msty:
If I figure I can consume it before I expect to die, it's cellaring. More than that is hoarding. So max 20 years for me. :)
 

#59
Derangedhermit...makes perfect sense now...I am still cellaring.
It's like an older friend of mine, years ago, a real down-to-earth guy, when I was riding with him while he bought new truck tires. The saleman was pushing some 60,000 mile tires, and the old guy started calculating. He said that 35,000 mile tires ought to do it.
 

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